In Process with Will Arbery on "Corsicana"

Listen to the complete audio interview as a podcast above. A transcription of the conversation appears below.

Natasha Sinha (Associate Artistic Director): Hi everyone, this is Natasha Sinha. I'm the Associate Artistic Director here at Playwrights Horizons. Thank you for listening to this “In Process” interview with Will Arbery, the playwright of the world premiere production coming up on our main stage, Corsicana.

So, folks may know you from your other plays, and particularly, perhaps, Heroes of the Fourth Turning, which premiered here at Playwrights in 2019. Can you talk about what it felt like to write this play that is doing a very different thing [from Heroes] and maybe why you needed to write it?

Will Arbery (Playwright): Heroes was a play that was sort of— I knew what I was getting into, to a degree. I mean, there's a lot that I couldn't have predicted, but I knew that the whole way that it was designed was inherently provocative. And also the way that it was written -- even independent of the fact that it was about five conservatives with no liberal voice making it easier, safer for the New York audience -- even independent of that provocation, it was also just, on a character level… It wasn't a pleasant ride, you know? [laughs]

As a person who cares very deeply about the characters that I write about and really tries to get their brains and hearts, and just as someone who just loves them, I was very aware of how much pain they were all in by the end of that play.

And so it was hard for me at times to know that I was bumming everybody out. [laughs]

It was just unpleasant, you know? I also knew that I was agitating them, politically or theologically, or all sorts of things, but, even just the pain was difficult for me.

NS: It felt challenging to watch, but in a way that I hadn't really experienced before. To go through a whole sustained ride and a whole gesture towards that was huge. I think about that a lot while we're working on [Corsicana], because I only had the experience of watching [Heroes]. And now I'm here at Playwrights Horizons for Corsicana and think about these characters so deeply.  I think about how these characters live, for you, in context of Heroes, and maybe your other plays, because it feels like a different sort of thing that you're doing and centering and unspooling.

WA: Yeah, it is. And there are also a lot of similarities. I mean, it's four very intelligent people in a small town in America where you wouldn't necessarily expect to hear people talking about the things that they're talking about or dealing with the things they're dealing with.

They're also all practicing Christians, just like in Heroes. 

The play is really, I think first and foremost, on a superficial level, defined by the fact that one of the main characters is a woman with Down syndrome and the play sort of kicks off with her admitting to her brother that she's experiencing a sadness that she's never experienced before and that she needs his help dealing with that. And that that's hard for her because she doesn't like asking for help.

You know, I think in the past I've described this play as gentle, but I wouldn't really do that anymore now, especially having been in rehearsals for it. I would describe it as delicate. Everyone in the play, but especially Ginny and Lot, care very deeply and very specifically about the words that they choose to say and the words that other people say to them. And so there's a sort of, like a tripwire feeling to this play. Words aren't just pouring out of people in the same way that they were in Heroes.

Heroes was fueled by alcohol, drugs, and also just like this passion, and belief – this ideology that is just swirling around and creating this flow of language.
In this play, there's a lot of people correcting each other. There's a lot of people asking each other not to use a certain word. And there's a lot of stopping and starting. 

And also I think the movement of the play is honestly a little bit more hopeful than Heroes. Maybe, a lot more hopeful. But I think that there's also a lot of pain and a lot of discomfort inside of it. Hopefully it doesn't feel easy. It's pretty hard-won. It's a pretty hard-won hope.

I think part of what my play is exploring is language, and the words that we choose to use.

And I think one of the things that my play is offering is that the way that a person uses language is inherently -- whether it's conscious or unconscious, and in most cases it's pretty unconscious -- but I think it's inherently artistic, to a certain degree. I mean, it's like a fingerprint. It's like somewhere between DNA and hyper-intentional art, because it's this thing that we have to do every day. It's something that is created.

I mean, we're given language, we're given vocabulary, we learn it, but we then can choose how we put our sentences together and how we communicate with people. So, that I think is much more with this play is about, and that's something that I've only really started to realize through doing it.

NS: I love that idea of a fingerprint, and sort of imprinting ourselves on what we're doing, how we're existing in the world. This idea of everyone having this fingerprint, everyone having a thing to put forward, and honoring that sort of interdependence. You talk about circles a lot with this play and that really reverberates in my mind. There's something about circles that feels really reflective of the sort of shapes I think of when I think of this play.

WA: Yeah. It's been a major thing and there's a lot of language in the play about circles and it's reflected in the design. 

I think basically I realized that this play was essentially a cycle of gift-giving.

I started to get really interested in what it would be like to write a play that wasn't about an escalation of conflict with a clear, you know, “[This] is the problem, and [here] are all the ways it gets harder and harder until it's either solved or not.” But instead, like in life, people have multiple problems that they're working through at once. And these things are all happening concurrently, in parallel, and they're informing each other. But it's just not that clear line that we so often see in dramatic structure, the way that we're taught, you know?

I just had this feeling that it could still be really theatrically satisfying, and theatrically compelling to see a cycle of gift-giving instead, where someone comes into a scene with a problem. And then they're given a gift, maybe from an unexpected person or an unexpected place. And then they sort of have something that they're able to give to someone else. And it's not like they're giving the same thing, it's just that receiving [something] – whether they acknowledge it or realize it or not – creates space for them to give something to someone else.

And it's not clearly mapped out for me, but it feels intuitively like that's what's happening in this play. 

And it’s actually a really weird position to be in as a playwright because I have no idea if that works, you know? We're taught a formula. We're basically taught that kindness is boring. And I guess… I guess this play is proposing that it's not.

NS: I think this play absolutely does work in that way because it feels like there's a momentum… I remember someone talking about swinging something into the air and creating a circle that just continues on because of the force from that center and it sort of builds around that. And that feels like what's happening in this play. And it does continue, the energy is there, it doesn't need the conflict. 

WA: Yeah. So there's— You know, when people see a play, they never see the… what's it called, the epigraph. 

I went to Kenyon College and was taught by this writer named Lewis Hyde, who writes these amazing books, but one of his most well-known books is called The Gift. And it's about a lot of things, but particularly about getting into a lot of societies that are structured around gift-giving. And he's also getting into the way that creativity is sort of a reliance on a similar sort of economy.

But anyway, it's a brilliant book that everybody should read, but I have as the epigraph [to this play], a quote from it, which is -- I made my own deletions inside of it, but: “When you give a gift, there is momentum and the weight shifts from body to body. The gift moves in a circle. The gift leaves all boundary, and circles into mystery.”

I think that kind of sums it up.

NS: That's gorgeous. And that's such a great argument for a different way of being, a different energy that totally still works. And you know, there's something about watching these four characters bring in what they need and then answer it…  It's the type of theater that imagines forward what our world could look like. 

And that obviously feels dramatically relevant, these days, but I think it always would have because of just offering alternate ways of existing that are kinder, that allow for more people to experience kindness. And that's, that's huge.

So, you asked if it worked, and I'm just like… It works, Will! That's not a question. 

WA: Even hearing you like reflect that language back to me about whether it works or not is a reminder that a huge part of how I designed this play in both conscious and unconscious ways was to release myself from that pressure of whether something works or doesn't, and to trust a little bit more, and surrender a little bit more.

You know, that's not to say that I'm not doing revisions and being rigorous, because it's so much about how precision of language matters. I'm trying to take care of my play in that way, but there's something else happening here, both in terms of who the characters are, who the actors are, but also the designers, the composer, and just how the process has been structured that’s forcing me to not be like, “Here is this air-tight machine that I've built and you can either get on board or not.” It's just a… it's just a totally different offering. 

Yeah. And it's also, it feels healthier.

NS: Yes. Yeah. What's it been like in the room? Has there been anything surprising about the process after like finally getting to be in the room with the whole team? 

WA: I mean so much that's been surprising. You know, it's funny because, to my knowledge, it's the biggest role that's ever been written in a new play for a performer with Down syndrome and so it's simultaneously—  I mean, I don't know if that's true. I'm just going based off of my own knowledge of the American theater and what I've seen and mostly what I haven't ever encountered.

It's complicated, everything about this play. Like, you could say one thing about it, and then there's this little sneaky complication that comes in, but, you know, we say all that about trust and surrender and taking care of ourselves. And all of that is very real.

And the way that Sam Gold, the director, has structured the process is very much embracing that [care], but it's also really challenging and really rigorous. 

And what Jamie Brewer, who plays Ginny, is doing in this play is like… I think it's fucking— Sorry. I just think it's… it's astonishing. She is completely breaking new ground with this because the play is not pulling any punches in terms of content, but also in terms of the precision of the lines.

It was sort of this tricky thing because of how we think about Down syndrome and neurodivergence in general, how we talk about it as a society, or don't talk about it mostly. We try to make things easier. We play it safe.
In this case, I was like, “No, I'm just going to write this play. And write this character who's based on my sister and my sister's friends. And I'm going to write the play exactly as I want it to be, and then that is the invitation to whoever plays this role.”

And Jamie Brewer has stepped into it with an incredible amount of artistry and precision. She's an actor who has made me feel – I was just talking about this on the train with Sam – she makes me feel really respected as a playwright because of the level of craft and precision that she's brought to this. She's just absolutely crushing it. 

So it just makes me happy because – this is another thing that I've realized in rehearsal – as much as the play is about taking care of each other and being delicate with each other and choosing our words carefully, it's also about how not taking care of each other can be a form of taking care of each other. And not going easy on each other at times. And so I'm seeing that play out in this process in a really beautiful way.

NS: I love that. 

Who do you most want to see this play? How do you think about that when you think about audiences coming in night after night?

WA: The person I most want to see it is my sister, Julia. I have seven sisters, but directly above me in the order is Julia, who has Down syndrome, and I think more than any other person in my life, she's the reason I'm a playwright. I think I've realized that lately.

And the reason is not like, she was like, “Will, I think you should be a playwright,” but, the way she uses language is extremely specific. Extremely delightful, profound. It has like a genius to it. She’s incredibly funny and incisive and, at times, discursive, but mostly just right on the fucking money.

And, you know, being her younger brother just kind of trained me from a young age to pay really close attention to words and the way people use them, down to the smallest detail. And so, yeah, she's the person I most want to see it.

And then also, I do obviously want other people with Down syndrome to see it, too. Because I think that the work that Jamie is doing in this play is heroic. And I want a conversation to start, specifically amongst people with Down syndrome about this new – what I consider new – ground to be broken and what else is possible.

It's important to state that Jamie was in another off-Broadway play that she was amazing in, called Amy and the Orphans by Lindsey Ferrentino, that did do a lot of this work that I'm talking about. The difference being, I think, that the character Jamie was playing was from an older generation where people with Down syndrome were more routinely institutionalized. And so that character's relationship to language and communication was very different than this character's. And that's a very important part of the history of Down syndrome to talk about, but this character, Ginny, is someone who's just, like, in a town in Texas, just part of the community her entire life and lives in contemporary America. 

And I really didn't design it to be like a soapbox or an issue play, you know.  She's just a part of the fabric of this world and this life, and they're all going through it. It also felt really important for it to be a true ensemble and for the weight to be evenly distributed amongst all four of these characters.

Alison Koch (Director of Digital Content): I remember you describing Heroes as a fugue. You've used [music] as a metaphor, as like a structural guide, and music is a big part of this play. How did the music come to be [in Corsicana] and are you thinking of this play in any kind of musical metaphor?

WA: That's a good question. There’s this one little exchange in the play where someone is like, “I don't like musicals” and someone else is like, “Are you serious? Grow up.” [laughs]

nd that comes from, like, this play is also very much about community. I'm a member of the New York theater community. And I sometimes feel like there are these two worlds – and there are a lot of people who move in between both worlds – but there's “Not Musicals” and “Musicals.”

And I've always sort of been like, “What's wrong with me? Why do I not respond to musicals? …Except A Strange Loop.” [laughter]

And it feels like there's something cut out of my heart at birth or something, like, what is wrong with me? Especially because Julia loves musicals.

And so really that's where the music came from – if I'm writing a play inspired by Julia, it can't not have music in it. And so then I really just tried to lean into that.

And the music that I'm drawn to, my favorite musicians are people like Daniel Johnston or Bill Callahan or Wesley Willis or people who write from this really raw, like bracingly raw place. It's often idiosyncratic, not conforming to rousing melodies. Just rough around the edges, you know? 

And Julia loves -- I mean, I love pop, too, I love all sorts of music -- but Julia really loves like sleek pop, you know? She’s just really a pop music fan.

So, it was like, okay, well how would these two taste profiles ever possibly find something together, you know?

And I think that there's lots of things that are underneath that, too. Like personality, trauma, and what we use music for – whether it's leaning into the pain or escaping from it, or some combination of both, you know. There's so many different things that I think are at work when it comes to taste in general.

So it was just a scary personal challenge for myself. How do I have a play with music that feels real, and earned, and like me, and also honoring my sister’s taste and… 

So, yeah, then we found someone who is truly one of my favorite musicians, Joanna Sternberg who I think is like the most exciting songwriter since Daniel Johnston.

And then we found out that they live literally across the street from Playwrights Horizons, which felt amazingly right for a play about localism, in a way. And like living across the street from each other, that just felt like such an amazing coincidence, convergence.

And it's just been this totally new experience for me that I think mirrors the action of the play. It's been hard for its own reasons, but kind of in this eerie way that really feels threaded into the same way that it's hard for the characters in the play.

And it's just awesome. [laughs] Yeah. I think it's going to turn out better than I could've ever hoped for in the music department. [laughter]

That's the other thing! If there's one person besides Julia who I want to see it, it's Hilary Duff. This goes out to your Hilary, please come see my play.

AK: We got it. We’re going to tag her in everything. 

NS: Opening night!

WA: I just have to say, that song “Come Clean” makes an appearance in the play. And the lyrics for that song are like some of the most mysterious and baffling that I've ever encountered. I dare you to try to find the logic in those lyrics. But then, if you apply it to the action that we're talking about, like the circle of gift-giving and the way that the gift leaves all boundary in circles into mystery, then suddenly “Come Clean” by Hilary Duff makes a lot more sense. And it's just like… [laughs]

AK: She's singing about a circle! I forgot! [singing] “Trying to fit a square into a circle was a lie…” Oh, it’s just a bop, man.

NS: Too good.

Being in this stage of the process, you're so close to tech, and to going into previews. How are you feeling about that? 

WA: Yeah. I mean, I feel really inside all of it. As I'm talking, I'm like, wow, I'm justdeep in it right now. I feel really excited to share it with people. I mean, there's still a lot to figure out, but I just feel like, our first performance, no matter what, by that time, we're going to have something really unique and wonderful to share with people. 

I just can't wait to get into the theater and start really seeing it, you know. But already it's just amazing what all four of these actors are doing.